I never met a Met fan who knew what he was talking about ... or a Boston fan of any sport.
I've been saying it for years: Thursday, September 22, 2011
Yesterday my friend Eric, whom I have been encouraging to write his own baseball blog, sent this link to me despite knowing that I am still pretty upset about the Yankees losing the 1960 World Series to Pittsburgh:
Click here: How Does The Mets 1962-2012 All-time Team Stack Up to The Yankees? - New York News - Runnin' Scared
How Does The Mets 1962-2012 All-time Team Stack Up to The Yankees?
By Allen Barra Fri., Jun. 22 2012 at 5:16 PM
Oh, the humanity!
There does not appear to be any eligibility criteria for making the all time Met team. I'll suggest some common sense stuff.
1. Play at least half your career with the team or at least play more games with the team than with any other team. That seems pretty reasonable but obviously beyond the grasp of Met fans who are embracing a CARDINAL as their first baseman. A CARDINAL!
2. Play at least eight full seasons with the team. Let's use the very weak criteria for qualifying for leadership in annual averages: 502 plate appearances (PA). Let's simplify that and round it to 4,000 PA. Pretty lenient, right?
3. I'll ignore fielding stats because I don't trust or understand them and use OPS+ for batting because it's OK and also understandable to the pretty smart but not really smart among us. All stats will be with the team unless otherwise indicated.
Now let's take a look at that all time Met team (plate appearances, OPS+):
Catcher Mike Piazza 3,941 136 (Dodgers: 3,017 160) Hey, Mets may finally get a second HoFer.
1st base Keith Hernandez 3,684 129 (CARDINAL 4,724 130; MVP; led in BA)
2nd base Edgardo Alfonso 4,449 113
SS Jose Reyes 4,840 107 plus 370 SB, 92 CS; led league in BA in 2011
3rd base David Wright 5,072 137 never led league in anything; MVP 4th in 2007
LF Cleon Jones 4,683 111
CF Carlos Beltran 3,640 129 (Royals 3,512 111); Met record HR: 41.
RF Darryl Strawberry 4,549 145 (1988: MVP 2, first: HR, SLG, OPS, OPS+)
Three of the eight have fewer than 4,000 PA: Piazza, Hernandez, Beltran. Only Wright has more than 5,000.
RH Starter Tom Seaver Traded away ... TWICE. Hall of Fame; 3 CY
LH Starter Jerry Koosman 2,545 innings, 113 ERA+
Now let's consider a Yankee team as Allen Barra did, from 1962 on. Fair enough. That pretty much eliminates Mickey Mantle (MVP 1956, 1957, 1962) and Whitey Ford (CY 1961 - note only one CY awarded 1956-1966). Plate appearances, OPS+:
C: Jorge Posada 7,150 121 Yes, over 1963 MVP Elston Howard and 1976 MVP Thurman Munson.
1B: Don Mattingly 7,772 127 1985 MVP
2B: Robinson Cano 4,714 120 (265 more PA than all time Met Edgardo Alfonso); never led league in anything
SS: Derek Jeter 11,479 117 (3,180 hits)
3B: Alex Rodriguez 5,243 143 (Seattle 3,515 138; Texas 2,172 155) 2005 MVP, 2007 MVP (54 HR); 171 more PA than all time Met David Wright
LF: Roy White 7,735 121
CF: Bernie Williams 9,053 125 led in BA 1998
RF: Dave Winfield 5,021 134 (SD 4,512 134) Hall of Fame
Only Cano has fewer than 5,000 PA.
The criteria I applied eliminated from consideration for the Yankees Hall of Famers:
- Rickie Henderson 2,735 135 (Oakland 7,481 137)
- Reggie Jackson 2,707 148 (Oakland 5,432 145; Angels 2,721 114)
SIX of the eight Yankees are lifetime Yankees, compared to only one Met. Which team has the hired guns?
RH: Mel Stottlemyre What the heck, I like Mel and Seaver will win anyway. What, you thought I'd pick Clemens?
LH: Ron Guidry 2,392 innings, 119 ERA+ 1978: CY, MVP 2
Now let's meld the teams; bold for players who played only for that team:
C: Mike Piazza Met
1B: Don Mattingly Yankee
2B: Robinson Cano Yankee
SS: Derek Jeter Yankee
3B: Alex Rodriguez Yankee
LF: Roy White Yankee
CF: Bernie Williams Yankee
RF: Dave Winfield Yankee
RH: Tom Seaver Met
LH: Ron Guidry Yankee
Bullpen:
- Mariano Rivera Yankee
- Goose Gossage Hall of Fame Yankee
- Sparky Lyle 1977 CY Yankee
Allen Barra made a mess of it in his article and did not even mention Dave Winfield or Roy White.
Tuesday, February 21, 2012 Glory Days in New York
Real glory days: 1958-1961. Just Yankees!
Ah, now I feel better.
4 comments:
*Very deep breath* Okay. Let's do this properly.
Gary Carter smokes ANY catcher the Yankees come up with. Keith Hernandez fights Donnie Baseball to a draw peak-wise, and destroys him longevity-wise. In my book, Keith wins it. Cano beats Alfonso. Jeter smokes Reyes. A-Rod beats Wright. Rickey Henderson, who should be in left, beats Jones. Beltran and Bernie are a dead heat, Williams hit better but was a terrible fielder. Beltran has definitely had a better career arc, though. I'd give it to Beltran. Strawberry beats Winfield (yes I know it sounds NUTS, but they each spent 8 years with their respective NY teams, and Straw WOOPS Winfield in a direct comparison). Piazza and Reggie DH; Piazza clearly was the superior hitter of the two, though not by much. I'd take a Seaver/Gooden/Koosman rotation, face up a Clemens/Guidry/Sabathia one, and win two of three of those easy. And Mo destroys John Franco, but we knew that.
I count 7 for the Mets, 7 for the Yankees. I will defend any of these points. Respond maybe? So I can prove we Mets fans know of which we speak?
You realize the title, right?
"I never met a Met fan who knew what he was talking about."
DH? Met fan wants a DH?
My criteria was simple: play more games for Mets/Yanks than for any other team. You ignored that.
The article I commented on had two starting pitchers, not three.
Sabathia? Did I mention Sabathia?
Hernandez was a CARDINAL. That's like my wanting to include Wade Boggs who was a RED SOX. Unthinkable.
Only play while a member of the NY team counts. On what planet could CARDINAL Hernandez as a MET beat Mattingly even if Hernandez was being considered?
Yanks don't need Henderson to win LF: Roy White!
Read what I wrote about CF. Come on, pay attention.
Strawberry over Winfield? Hall of Shame v. Hall of Fame.
You Met fans make my point.
Sorry for not coming back and commenting earlier - the "your post has been responded to!" email got sent to an address I never use.
You CANNOT say "only NY team performance counts" and then say Winfield gets in over Strawberry. You just can't. Strawberry's NY play was absolutely HOF quality, better in spades than Winfield's NY years. So fine, take Donnie Baseball over Hernandez, but then you HAVE to accept Strawberry over Winfield. There are no numbers which support anything other than that.
And you can't talk about "Hall of Shame," you have admitted steroid user Alex Rodriguez in your team!
I don't care how many pitchers the original article had. Let's face it, the best two Met pitchers (Seaver and Gooden) annihilate any two Yankee pitchers you can come up with, and it's not close. So be happy I suggested CC - you lose 2 out of 3 rather than 2 out of 2.
Might as well include a DH as not, I don't see why we shouldn't so we can compare more players.
And any Met fan will tell you that what you're saying about Hernandez is ridiculous. But of course, you know it too.
Darryl Strawberry 4,549 PA 145 OPS+
Dave Winfield 5,021 PA 134 OPS+ but a much better fielder and teammate.
Even is reasonable.
The all time Met team listed ONE righty, not two. That's why I did not mention Gooden.
Moving Piazza to DH loses you catcher and does not win you DH. Geez! Come on.
A-Rod admitted using with TEXAS! He took stuff to improve. Gooden and Strawberry took stuff to get high, which I'm guessing makes their performance worse. Did you notice that it was the YANKEES who rehabilitated them?
Go ahead. Keeping my point.
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